FreeTrack Forum

RSS > Freetrack doesnt work in Armed Assault 2!!

tsar bomba	#121 16/07/2009 - 01h20 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 8 Registered on : 15/07/2009 Off line	Placebo criticized Freetrack for "piggybacking" on TrackIR's API... Well I am going to quote myself with this one... Because the cost is lower and carries a coolness factor, it is almost infectious and people at LAN parties take on an interest and pursue head tracking on their own. This is good for the gaming community. I suspect that NP is getting a LOT of business from Freetrack's success. It is like a snowball effect... a few people build a Freetrack system and other people see it online in youtube or at a LAN and say "holy sh*t, i GOTTA do that"... and the headtracking userbase grows. Sure a lot of people are going to choose Freetrack, but some of them will go with TrackIR. So in this sense, TrackIR sales are benefiting from the contributions from Freetrack. NP is piggybacking on FT's success. There is NO denying that. Another metric to consider: BIS claims that the TIR user base exceeds that of FT. I find this very hard to believe. Look at the forums over at BIS. Everyone with TIR1/2/3 are S.O.L.... they are in the same boat as us FT people. How many legacy TIR people are bitching? Surely if TIR has such a large marketshare advantage, there would be more legacy TIR users than FT ones. I call bullshit. On a related note: I am a steam customer. I bought the game via retail and have the DVD. Like the idiot that I am, i activated the product on Steam before installing and it slowly downloaded the whole thing. The reward for my patiences is that I do not have securom protection now. PLEASE, someone, tell me that there is a FT fix for Steam clients. I could not find it. If there is no existing fix, I will have to go digging through the code and fix it myself. I probably need to speak with whoever found the original fix and find out which bits were changed so that I can employ a similar fix within the Steam client. Edited by tsar bomba on 16/07/2009 at 01h26.
Bushlurker	#122 16/07/2009 - 01h55 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 45 Registered on : 15/04/2009 Off line	I was asked about the steam version and didn't have a clue... If the .exe is uncompressed and unencrypted then the fixer should work.. I think... You should really speak to Quarrion - he wrote the fixer... I've seen him around here - he contributed to this thread and of course, he has the Fixer thread of his own... http://forum.free-track.net/index.php?showtopic=1892&page=1#11594 Please let us know how you get on - it would be good to be able to advise people with Steam versions what their options are... B
tsar bomba	#123 16/07/2009 - 03h25 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 8 Registered on : 15/07/2009 Off line	Thanks for the info. Once I get this working for the Steam client, I will need an anonymous release vehicle. The last thing that I want is to become involved in a legal war with a monopolist. Then again, it has been a long time since I have been in court... Technically speaking, the correct way to fix this problem from a software engineering standpoint is to add support for the encryption used in the newest version of TIR to the FreeTrack code. Since the authors of FreeTrack would not be likely to do such a thing, it would have to be an unofficial patch to FreeTrack, or better yet, an external program that bridged the applications. With an external program, users of TIR v1/2/3 would re-gain the lost functionality and everyone wins (well, maybe not NP)
Bushlurker	#124 16/07/2009 - 04h02 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 45 Registered on : 15/04/2009 Off line	sounds like an absolutely GREAT idea if you can make it work!!! I particularly like the irony of it helping out the tIR 1/2/3 crew too! Class! B
Antuel	#125 16/07/2009 - 04h11 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 6 Registered on : 15/07/2009 Off line	Hi, Im having this problem: I installed the game, the patch, I've aplied the crack and the fixer. But Im missing something, I cant move the head in the game... Do I have to configure the game or something in special? or Its just like the IL2 & LFS, run FT, then run the game? Thx for the help People
Bushlurker	#126 16/07/2009 - 04h31 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 45 Registered on : 15/04/2009 Off line	is trackIR enabled in-game? - its under the custom controllers options somewhere... make sure it's actually active, you might need to shut down and restart the game... Edited by Bushlurker on 16/07/2009 at 04h33.
tsar bomba	#127 16/07/2009 - 08h44 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 8 Registered on : 15/07/2009 Off line	OK, i have FT working inside of ArmA2 now... kinda. I notice that while on foot, X translation equates to leaning left/right. While in the cockpit, however, you cannot tilt head left/right (roll), you cannot translate left/right/up/down. You can, however, zoom with front/rear translation. Pitch and yaw affect your viewpoint as expected.... So this is what, 3DOF in the cockpit? Is this the best that can be expected, or am I missing something with the setup? :/ UPDATE Apparently this is all that is supported in ArmA2 I guess that mediocrity is contagious and that BIS caught a nasty case during intercourse with NP. :/ I find the other 3 degrees of freedom to be immensely valuable while piloting helicopters. I can MOVE my head within the cockpit instead of just changing where I am looking. If I want to, i can move my head right up next to a gauge to read it. In ArmA, you cannot look straight down below the aircraft because you cannot MOVE your head to the sides to get up against the glass... Check out this video I made a long time ago with FS2004. Sad that FS2004 supports 6DoF and it is 5 years old... and ArmA2 leaves us wishing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQlAHE5LciM Edited by tsar bomba on 16/07/2009 at 09h58.
hotshot232	#128 16/07/2009 - 14h21 Top
Class : Habitué Posts : 56 Registered on : 25/02/2008 Off line	Good video Bomba Ok for the record guys I am dropping the issue with BIS. They are not going to fix this issue for a long time. They are putting all their efforts to patching the bugs and other things they left screwed up in the game when they released it. So instead of releasing a solid bug free product they yet again released a bug riddled mess. They did the same thing with Arma 1 and spent forever patching it to get it to run stable, fast, and squash all the other bugs. With this being said and after getting PM's from Suma, it is obvious they put Free Track support wayyyy down on their list of "to do's". I think our best bet is just to rely on people such as Quarrion. This is going to be our ONLY option at Free Track in ArmA 2. Natural Point Vincent - You are a chicken shit little guy. You going to pop in here with a Ninja smiley like you are cute. You and your company are the lowest of the low. You don't even support your past hardware releases in new titles. You are not in the business of supplying a quality product. You are in the business of screwing people over. Not only have you screwed over your own customers but you are attempt to screw over Free Track and other head tracking options. I hate your company!!!! Hate is a strong word, but in all honesty I HATE Natural Point. I will NEVER own a natural point product. Hell you can put every head tracking company out of business and I will still NEVER buy a Natural Point product. I lost hope guys, sorry
tsar bomba	#129 16/07/2009 - 15h31 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 8 Registered on : 15/07/2009 Off line	For the record (from an ex-NP customer)... Quarrion's fix allows TIR1,2,3 hardware to work in ArmA2. I wonder what size of a shitstorm would be brewed by dropping this bomb in the NP forums. Just be sure to use a ninja-smiley when you make the announcement. BTW: My main gripe with ArmA2 is the fact that there is no 6D.O.F. support for even TrackIR. It could likely be added with a community mod, however. I know that there is a high demand for this feature. I wonder what would happen if the mod were to accept only the FreeTrack API as an input source. As this would clearly give an advantage to the FT users, I wonder if 6DOF would officially be added by BIS shortly afterwards. Of course, TIR users could just use FreeTrack software to interface with such a mod... OH WAIT... FT devs removed support for TIR devices at NP's request.. darn, i forgot about that. Edited by tsar bomba on 16/07/2009 at 15h53.
Antuel	#130 16/07/2009 - 15h52 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 6 Registered on : 15/07/2009 Off line	Bushlurker @ 16/07/2009 - 06h31 a dit: is trackIR enabled in-game? - its under the custom controllers options somewhere... make sure it's actually active, you might need to shut down and restart the game... Worked, thx for your help!
Jorge.PT	#131 16/07/2009 - 16h26 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 40 Registered on : 29/03/2009 Off line	hotshot232 @ 16/07/2009 - 16h21 a dit: I lost hope guys, sorry No problem, you did good and... I told you Anyone knows what's the situation of freetrack in rise of flight (the new WW1 flightsim)? EDIT: @tsar bomba: keep an eye on this site http://www.kegetys.net/arma/ He made 6DOF available in arma(1) and he's my last hope to see freetrack supported in arma2 via a addon. Edited by Jorge.PT on 16/07/2009 at 16h31.
Bushlurker	#132 16/07/2009 - 17h27 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 45 Registered on : 15/04/2009 Off line	Small points of interest... I took a note, and the last Freetrack thread to be closed recently has had more views since it was closed than it had while it was open! I've opened or contributed to threads on a couple of other forums too - mentioning the fact that the fix works for TrackIR 1/2/3 owners as well... Would be funny if someone posted THAT bit of news on the BIS TrackIR thread!! KEGETYS!!!! One of my all-time favourite wildcard programming genius dudes!!! Not only do I headtrack for free thanks to Freetrack (quarrion et al), but I do it across 54" of monitors - like this.... ... also for free - with his awesome SoftTH... (ok - not entirely free... u need a coupla extra monitors an just about any old cheesy secondary graphics card)... A deeply clever guy...... (PS - check out the little reflective beads on my nanoclip glowing like crazy reflecting the flash! - its like the SuperBloom in Arma2 - hehe - if you saw the photo of it without flash, you'll know that they physically arent that big - they just reflect REALLY well - from every angle, cause they're spheres..... I really do think the Reflec-style tracking is the quickest and easiest option if anybody's in the market for buying a new cam...). @ hotshot... It ain't over yet, buddy! Though I DO agree that for the forseeable future BIS are gonna be REAL busy just fixing heavyweight bugs and we're on our own... That's cool - we're used to that... I don't write BIS of entirely... yet... you know how sloooow they are... I see they've had to wheel out the Big Boss to placate the baying hordes.... http://www.armedassault.info/index.php?s=b1b707c7db0cf1a965791aec428f4fb8&cat=news&id=2754&game=1 6DoF... I think this was hyped like crazy by NP for the TrackIR5/Arma2 combo - except it never happened..... Keg DID get it working tho - via his own "ArmaLib"... Details here... http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=67918&highlight=6DoF B Edited by Bushlurker on 16/07/2009 at 17h44.
tsar bomba	#133 16/07/2009 - 19h05 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 8 Registered on : 15/07/2009 Off line	Jorge.PT @ 16/07/2009 - 18h26 a dit: hotshot232 @ 16/07/2009 - 16h21 a dit: I lost hope guys, sorry No problem, you did good and... I told you Anyone knows what's the situation of freetrack in rise of flight (the new WW1 flightsim)? EDIT: @tsar bomba: keep an eye on this site http://www.kegetys.net/arma/ He made 6DOF available in arma(1) and he's my last hope to see freetrack supported in arma2 via a addon. I have a shrine to Kegetys at my house... i am familiar with his work. SoftTH FTW
hotshot232	#134 16/07/2009 - 21h47 Top
Class : Habitué Posts : 56 Registered on : 25/02/2008 Off line	Bushlurker @ 16/07/2009 - 19h27 a dit: @ hotshot... It ain't over yet, buddy! Though I DO agree that for the forseeable future BIS are gonna be REAL busy just fixing heavyweight bugs and we're on our own... That's cool - we're used to that... I don't write BIS of entirely... yet... you know how sloooow they are... Bush, bro I LOVE your setup. The invisible light source with the reflective setup is top notch. The 3 monitors is pretty badass to @Jorge Yea bro I know, I gave it my all that is for sure. Now it is time to quit the talking and get something resolved for us. That way we can all go about our business and leave the money hungry companies alone.
Bushlurker	#135 16/07/2009 - 22h04 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 45 Registered on : 15/04/2009 Off line	@hotshot... Thanks dude - not tryin to show off or anything - I reckon its all good Freetrack PR... it DOES look good, and hassle free - which is the angle I'm playing..... like Tsar bomba said - people come here expecting mechanno sets - thats here too if thats your thing - but freetrack stuff can look VERY cool if you put your mind to it... The kids - and all these new potential Arma2 players - LOOVE that stuff.... Some of them will settle down and become long term users - of freetrack AND arma - which is a good thing for everyone - BIS included... you still OK for bumping the poll occasionally hotshot? Placebo still OK for that? Much as I like the guy - most of the time - he seems a little quirkier than usual on this topic - an I dunno why... Tho I can see where you're coming from... Now it is time to quit the talking and get something resolved for us. That way we can all go about our business and leave the money hungry companies alone I don't normally spend all of this time and effort on forums - I been a member of the BIS forum since 2004 and I had about 70 posts - until a fortnight ago - now I'm hitting 200! The bottom line is - We're sorted - and I don't doubt that we'll continue to be sorted for Freetrack in Arma2 - which really is my absolutely only concern really.... Why do we bother to pursue the topic at all??? - maybe Placebo and BIS should be asking themselves that... B Edited by Bushlurker on 16/07/2009 at 22h28.

tsar bomba

#121 16/07/2009 - 01h20

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Placebo criticized Freetrack for "piggybacking" on TrackIR's API... Well I am going to quote myself with this one...
Because the cost is lower and carries a coolness factor, it is almost infectious and people at LAN parties take on an interest and pursue head tracking on their own. This is good for the gaming community.

I suspect that NP is getting a LOT of business from Freetrack's success. It is like a snowball effect... a few people build a Freetrack system and other people see it online in youtube or at a LAN and say "holy sh*t, i GOTTA do that"... and the headtracking userbase grows. Sure a lot of people are going to choose Freetrack, but some of them will go with TrackIR. So in this sense, TrackIR sales are benefiting from the contributions from Freetrack. NP is piggybacking on FT's success. There is NO denying that.

Another metric to consider: BIS claims that the TIR user base exceeds that of FT. I find this very hard to believe. Look at the forums over at BIS. Everyone with TIR1/2/3 are S.O.L.... they are in the same boat as us FT people. How many legacy TIR people are bitching? Surely if TIR has such a large marketshare advantage, there would be more legacy TIR users than FT ones.

I call bullshit.

On a related note: I am a steam customer. I bought the game via retail and have the DVD. Like the idiot that I am, i activated the product on Steam before installing and it slowly downloaded the whole thing. The reward for my patiences is that I do not have securom protection now. PLEASE, someone, tell me that there is a FT fix for Steam clients.

I could not find it.

If there is no existing fix, I will have to go digging through the code and fix it myself. I probably need to speak with whoever found the original fix and find out which bits were changed so that I can employ a similar fix within the Steam client.

Edited by tsar bomba on 16/07/2009 at 01h26.

Bushlurker

#122 16/07/2009 - 01h55

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I was asked about the steam version and didn't have a clue...
If the .exe is uncompressed and unencrypted then the fixer should work.. I think...
You should really speak to Quarrion - he wrote the fixer... I've seen him around here - he contributed to this thread and of course, he has the Fixer thread of his own...

http://forum.free-track.net/index.php?showtopic=1892&page=1#11594

Please let us know how you get on - it would be good to be able to advise people with Steam versions what their options are...

B

tsar bomba

#123 16/07/2009 - 03h25

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Thanks for the info.

Once I get this working for the Steam client, I will need an anonymous release vehicle. The last thing that I want is to become involved in a legal war with a monopolist.

Then again, it has been a long time since I have been in court...

Technically speaking, the *correct* way to fix this problem from a software engineering standpoint is to add support for the encryption used in the newest version of TIR to the FreeTrack code. Since the authors of FreeTrack would not be likely to do such a thing, it would have to be an unofficial patch to FreeTrack, or better yet, an external program that bridged the applications. With an external program, users of TIR v1/2/3 would re-gain the lost functionality and everyone wins (well, maybe not NP)

Bushlurker

#124 16/07/2009 - 04h02

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sounds like an absolutely GREAT idea if you can make it work!!!

I particularly like the irony of it helping out the tIR 1/2/3 crew too! Class!

B

Antuel

#125 16/07/2009 - 04h11

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Hi, Im having this problem:

I installed the game, the patch, I've aplied the crack and the fixer. But Im missing something, I cant move the head in the game... Do I have to configure the game or something in special? or Its just like the IL2 & LFS, run FT, then run the game?

Thx for the help People

Bushlurker

#126 16/07/2009 - 04h31

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is trackIR enabled in-game? - its under the custom controllers options somewhere... make sure it's actually active, you might need to shut down and restart the game...

Edited by Bushlurker on 16/07/2009 at 04h33.

tsar bomba

#127 16/07/2009 - 08h44

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OK, i have FT working inside of ArmA2 now... kinda.

I notice that while on foot, X translation equates to leaning left/right. While in the cockpit, however, you cannot tilt head left/right (roll), you cannot translate left/right/up/down. You can, however, zoom with front/rear translation. Pitch and yaw affect your viewpoint as expected....

So this is what, 3DOF in the cockpit? Is this the best that can be expected, or am I missing something with the setup? :/

** UPDATE **
Apparently this is all that is supported in ArmA2

I guess that mediocrity is contagious and that BIS caught a nasty case during intercourse with NP. :/

I find the other 3 degrees of freedom to be immensely valuable while piloting helicopters. I can MOVE my head within the cockpit instead of just changing where I am looking. If I want to, i can move my head right up next to a gauge to read it. In ArmA, you cannot look straight down below the aircraft because you cannot MOVE your head to the sides to get up against the glass...

Check out this video I made a long time ago with FS2004. Sad that FS2004 supports 6DoF and it is 5 years old... and ArmA2 leaves us wishing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQlAHE5LciM

Edited by tsar bomba on 16/07/2009 at 09h58.

hotshot232

#128 16/07/2009 - 14h21

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Good video Bomba

Ok for the record guys I am dropping the issue with BIS. They are not going to fix this issue for a long time. They are putting all their efforts to patching the bugs and other things they left screwed up in the game when they released it. So instead of releasing a solid bug free product they yet again released a bug riddled mess. They did the same thing with Arma 1 and spent forever patching it to get it to run stable, fast, and squash all the other bugs.

With this being said and after getting PM's from Suma, it is obvious they put Free Track support wayyyy down on their list of "to do's".

I think our best bet is just to rely on people such as Quarrion. This is going to be our ONLY option at Free Track in ArmA 2.

Natural Point Vincent - You are a chicken shit little guy. You going to pop in here with a Ninja smiley like you are cute. You and your company are the lowest of the low. You don't even support your past hardware releases in new titles. You are not in the business of supplying a quality product. You are in the business of screwing people over. Not only have you screwed over your own customers but you are attempt to screw over Free Track and other head tracking options. I hate your company!!!! Hate is a strong word, but in all honesty I HATE Natural Point. I will NEVER own a natural point product. Hell you can put every head tracking company out of business and I will still NEVER buy a Natural Point product.

I lost hope guys, sorry

tsar bomba

#129 16/07/2009 - 15h31

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For the record (from an ex-NP customer)...

Quarrion's fix allows TIR1,2,3 hardware to work in ArmA2.

I wonder what size of a shitstorm would be brewed by dropping this bomb in the NP forums. Just be sure to use a ninja-smiley when you make the announcement.

BTW: My main gripe with ArmA2 is the fact that there is no 6D.O.F. support for even TrackIR. It could likely be added with a community mod, however. I know that there is a high demand for this feature.

I wonder what would happen if the mod were to accept only the FreeTrack API as an input source. As this would clearly give an advantage to the FT users, I wonder if 6DOF would officially be added by BIS shortly afterwards.

Of course, TIR users could just use FreeTrack software to interface with such a mod... OH WAIT... FT devs removed support for TIR devices at NP's request.. darn, i forgot about that.

Edited by tsar bomba on 16/07/2009 at 15h53.

Antuel

#130 16/07/2009 - 15h52

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Bushlurker @ 16/07/2009 - 06h31 a dit:
is trackIR enabled in-game? - its under the custom controllers options somewhere... make sure it's actually active, you might need to shut down and restart the game...

Worked, thx for your help!

Jorge.PT

#131 16/07/2009 - 16h26

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hotshot232 @ 16/07/2009 - 16h21 a dit:

I lost hope guys, sorry

No problem, you did good and... I told you

Anyone knows what's the situation of freetrack in rise of flight (the new WW1 flightsim)?

EDIT:

@tsar bomba: keep an eye on this site http://www.kegetys.net/arma/

He made 6DOF available in arma(1) and he's my last hope to see freetrack supported in arma2 via a addon.

Edited by Jorge.PT on 16/07/2009 at 16h31.

Bushlurker

#132 16/07/2009 - 17h27

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Small points of interest...
I took a note, and the last Freetrack thread to be closed recently has had more views since it was closed than it had while it was open!
I've opened or contributed to threads on a couple of other forums too - mentioning the fact that the fix works for TrackIR 1/2/3 owners as well...
Would be funny if someone posted THAT bit of news on the BIS TrackIR thread!!

KEGETYS!!!!
One of my all-time favourite wildcard programming genius dudes!!!
Not only do I headtrack for free thanks to Freetrack (quarrion et al), but I do it across 54" of monitors - like this....

Posted Image

... also for free - with his awesome SoftTH... (ok - not entirely free... u need a coupla extra monitors an just about any old cheesy secondary graphics card)...
A deeply clever guy......

(PS - check out the little reflective beads on my nanoclip glowing like crazy reflecting the flash! - its like the SuperBloom in Arma2 - hehe - if you saw the photo of it without flash, you'll know that they physically arent that big - they just reflect REALLY well - from every angle, cause they're spheres..... I really do think the Reflec-style tracking is the quickest and easiest option if anybody's in the market for buying a new cam...).

@ hotshot...
It ain't over yet, buddy! Though I DO agree that for the forseeable future BIS are gonna be REAL busy just fixing heavyweight bugs and we're on our own...
That's cool - we're used to that...
I don't write BIS of entirely... yet... you know how sloooow they are...

I see they've had to wheel out the Big Boss to placate the baying hordes....
http://www.armedassault.info/index.php?s=b1b707c7db0cf1a965791aec428f4fb8&cat=news&id=2754&game=1

6DoF...
I think this was hyped like crazy by NP for the TrackIR5/Arma2 combo - except it never happened..... Keg DID get it working tho - via his own "ArmaLib"...
Details here...
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=67918&highlight=6DoF

B

Edited by Bushlurker on 16/07/2009 at 17h44.

tsar bomba

#133 16/07/2009 - 19h05

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Jorge.PT @ 16/07/2009 - 18h26 a dit:
hotshot232 @ 16/07/2009 - 16h21 a dit:

I lost hope guys, sorry

No problem, you did good and... I told you

Anyone knows what's the situation of freetrack in rise of flight (the new WW1 flightsim)?

EDIT:

@tsar bomba: keep an eye on this site http://www.kegetys.net/arma/

He made 6DOF available in arma(1) and he's my last hope to see freetrack supported in arma2 via a addon.

I have a shrine to Kegetys at my house... i am familiar with his work. SoftTH FTW

hotshot232

#134 16/07/2009 - 21h47

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Bushlurker @ 16/07/2009 - 19h27 a dit:

@ hotshot...
It ain't over yet, buddy! Though I DO agree that for the forseeable future BIS are gonna be REAL busy just fixing heavyweight bugs and we're on our own...
That's cool - we're used to that...
I don't write BIS of entirely... yet... you know how sloooow they are...

Bush, bro I LOVE your setup. The invisible light source with the reflective setup is top notch. The 3 monitors is pretty badass to

@Jorge
Yea bro I know, I gave it my all that is for sure. Now it is time to quit the talking and get something resolved for us. That way we can all go about our business and leave the money hungry companies alone.

Bushlurker

#135 16/07/2009 - 22h04

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@hotshot...
Thanks dude - not tryin to show off or anything - I reckon its all good Freetrack PR... it DOES look good, and hassle free - which is the angle I'm playing.....

like Tsar bomba said - people come here expecting mechanno sets - thats here too if thats your thing - but freetrack stuff can look VERY cool if you put your mind to it...
The kids - and all these new potential Arma2 players - LOOVE that stuff....
Some of them will settle down and become long term users - of freetrack AND arma - which is a good thing for everyone - BIS included...

you still OK for bumping the poll occasionally hotshot? Placebo still OK for that?
Much as I like the guy - most of the time - he seems a little quirkier than usual on this topic - an I dunno why...

Tho I can see where you're coming from...

Now it is time to quit the talking and get something resolved for us. That way we can all go about our business and leave the money hungry companies alone

I don't normally spend all of this time and effort on forums - I been a member of the BIS forum since 2004 and I had about 70 posts - until a fortnight ago - now I'm hitting 200!

The bottom line is - We're sorted - and I don't doubt that we'll continue to be sorted for Freetrack in Arma2 - which really is my absolutely only concern really....
Why do we bother to pursue the topic at all??? - maybe Placebo and BIS should be asking themselves that...

B

Edited by Bushlurker on 16/07/2009 at 22h28.

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